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 Post subject: Re: World War II
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:25 am 
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nero wrote:
And do no 1 American who is agreeing with the Russian view.


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 Post subject: Re: World War II
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:36 am 
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Agreement of Mutual Assistance between the United Kingdom and Poland-London (1939)

Text of the agreement, along with its secret protocols

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 Post subject: Re: World War II
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:45 pm 
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nero wrote:
How is this in any way connected the current Russian view that Poland was culpable for the WWII? I think that was the crux of wulfir's post.


The Russian narrative tends to downplay the importance of the Molotov-Ribbentropp pact and the Soviet invasion of eastern Poland. The Russian narrative gang also tends to view the Soviet occupation of Poland 44/45 and post-war as sort of legit, kind of how they are entitled to Finland...

...the problem with Britain and France is that they were not sufficiently coordinated pre-war. They were sort of operating on the "gang-up-on-the-bad-guy-when-the-need-arise" approach sometimes championed here by jwilk. It's just not efficient enough and duplicated efforts (like the navies) for two nations that were not big enough. Improvising that cooperation after the war started, even with the experience of WW1 and the phoney war break did not help.

The Soviet Union OTOH just plain helped Hitler out. And here are the Russians now blaming the Brits and Frogs. LMAO.


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 Post subject: Re: World War II
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:11 pm 
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wulfir wrote:
nero wrote:
How is this in any way connected the current Russian view that Poland was culpable for the WWII? I think that was the crux of wulfir's post.


The Russian narrative tends to downplay the importance of the Molotov-Ribbentropp pact and the Soviet invasion of eastern Poland. The Russian narrative gang also tends to view the Soviet occupation of Poland 44/45 and post-war as sort of legit, kind of how they are entitled to Finland...

...the problem with Britain and France is that they were not sufficiently coordinated pre-war. They were sort of operating on the "gang-up-on-the-bad-guy-when-the-need-arise" approach sometimes championed here by jwilk. It's just not efficient enough and duplicated efforts (like the navies) for two nations that were not big enough. Improvising that cooperation after the war started, even with the experience of WW1 and the phoney war break did not help.

The Soviet Union OTOH just plain helped Hitler out. And here are the Russians now blaming the Brits and Frogs. LMAO.



Quote:
They were sort of operating on the "gang-up-on-the-bad-guy-when-the-need-arise" approach sometimes championed here by jwilk. It's just not efficient enough...


I suppose that having a mutual defense treaty organization where the 'vast majority of the treaty partners would want to remain neutral in the event of a conflict where a partner on the other side of the ocean were attacked' is a better solution.

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 Post subject: Re: World War II
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:41 pm 
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chijohnaok wrote:
...is a better solution.


From a Anglo-French perspective? Well, the solution they tried 39-40 obviously didn't work...


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 Post subject: Re: World War II
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:53 am 
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Joins forces with Nazis. Heh!


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 Post subject: Re: World War II
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:43 pm 
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Estonians do not agree...


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 Post subject: Re: World War II
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:06 am 
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Leaving aside the legitimacy of "independence movements" for a moment wasn't eastern Poland's relationship with Russia going back to Kievan Rus kind of a dependent one?

IMO the keys to understanding modern Russian geopolitics are these:

1. Russia has been invaded many times from the west along its Finno-Scandinavian, Baltic State, and Polish borders. The last people to do that were Poles, IIRC, during the 1919-20 period. Therefore, Russia wants dependent client states as buffers.

2. Russian nationalism in the grander, allegorical sense goes, back to the Principalities of Kievan Rus, Novgorod, etc. They have this idea of wanting to reclaim that grandeur, in the same way the Chinese of the PRC want to claim all of SE Asia as their dominated client states.

IMO Europe needs to negotiate a lowered state of mutual paranoia with Russia. Unfortunately, the USSR and USA blew up, during the 1950s, the potentially cordial relationship that could have existed, and there are many American congressmen in the pocket of defense contractors who still want Russia to be the Bogeyman that justifies endless military spending. The only way to reduce tensions in the region is for continental western European states form their own credible military force as a deterrent force, and to extend a pragmatic and real world solution to recognize mutual concerns, and for the USA to withdraw from NATO.

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 Post subject: Re: World War II
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:30 pm 
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mdiehl wrote:
Leaving aside the legitimacy of "independence movements" for a moment...


Sensible people don't agree with the Russian narrative being pushed out nowadays - trying to whitewash Stalin and the USSR from events during WWII.

"The time is long gone when it was possible to have an adult conversation with Russia about its past. "
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 Post subject: Re: World War II
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:22 pm 
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Which parts? Seriously, your one quote is from a guy who says basically "You can't talk to Russians"?

I think I know what motivates Russians generally with respect to international power projection. Is it seriously your contention that Russia has no reasonable concern about past invasions launched from western Europe?

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