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 Post subject: Re: How I began to teach about the Vietnam War
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 3:52 pm 
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mdiehl wrote:
Why would anyone think the communists lost? When one considers that the PRC has been so enormously successful despite their centrally planned economy, and the degree to which US manufacturing capacity has been replaced by PRC capacity, I suggest the commies won. There are more commies now than ever. Thanks to globalists, they have done more strategic damage to US industrial capability than could have been achieved by the USSR using hundreds of nuclear warheads.


Soon half of americans don't believe in Lunar Landings and half the schools teach creationism while China is just getting their Mars and Lunar colonization programs started. They were several decades behind the US but since somehow US has mostly quit they now have all the time they could ever hope for to catch up.

Meanwhile westerners are stepping over each other for a chance to sacrifice their manufacturing capacity and R&D to chinese.

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 Post subject: Re: How I began to teach about the Vietnam War
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:34 pm 
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Link to the article has changed, the new one is

Quote:
How I Began to Teach About the Vietnam War
Taylor, K.W.
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Volume XLIII, Issue 4: Viet Nam: Beyond the Frame, Fall 2004
Permalink: http://hdl.handle.net/2027/spo.act2080.0043.420
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 Post subject: Re: How I began to teach about the Vietnam War
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:10 pm 
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mdiehl wrote:
The tragedy of Viet Nam is that the USA did not back Ho starting in 1945, rather than trying to aid France in the maintenance of its vicious empire.


+1

I've seen two reasons given as to why Truman did not continue to support Ho as the US had done during the war (perhaps even saving his life).
01 - Truman was promulgating a "Europe First" strategy and wanted France's support in negotiating the occupation zones.
02 - De Gaulle threatened to not support the UN if Truman did not support the French in VN and the UN was Truman's baby.

Not sure either of those reasons sound very compelling ...

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 Post subject: Re: How I began to teach about the Vietnam War
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:24 pm 
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Kameolontti wrote:
Soon half of americans don't believe in Lunar Landings and half the schools teach creationism while China is just getting their Mars and Lunar colonization programs started. They were several decades behind the US but since somehow US has mostly quit they now have all the time they could ever hope for to catch up.

Meanwhile westerners are stepping over each other for a chance to sacrifice their manufacturing capacity and R&D to chinese.



Look the Chinese may be serious about Lunar and Martian exploration but let me tell you something, the United States is a world leader on Transgender Bathroom Philosophy and Grievance Studies....

we have ALREADY "won" the future.

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 Post subject: Re: How I began to teach about the Vietnam War
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:38 pm 
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abradley wrote:
Quote:
Democratic Republic of Vietnam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killi ... of_Vietnam
Further information: North Vietnam

In the early 1950s, the Communist government in North Vietnam launched a land reform program, which, according to Steven Rosefielde, was "aimed at exterminating class enemies."[146] Victims were chosen in an arbitrary manner, following a quota of four to five percent.[147] Torture was used on a wide scale, so much so that by 1954 Ho Chi Minh became concerned, and had it banned.[147] It is estimated that some 50,000[147] to 172,000[146] people perished in the campaigns against wealthy farmers and landowners. Rosefielde discusses much higher estimates that range from 200,000 to 900,000, which includes summary executions of National People's Party members.[146]
Ho Chi Minh was just a frustrated nationalist, it's all the US's fault for not backing him.

Same must be true for all the others on the page.

Evil USA, bad boy.



+1

It's funny I guess Ho Chi Minh had a time machine and sent messages back to himself when he was a Communist in France during the Versailles Conferences writing in papers advocating Communist Revolution...."Hey Nguyễn Ái Quốc the Amis will eventually back Pierre against your designs on Vietnam....so go full communard and while you are at it agitate for the French to join the Third ComIntern" then Ho told young Nguyen, "hey go work for the Third ComIntern... in 1923 that will TOTALLY seal your non-communist street cred with the Amis" and in 1924 give Communist Party Lectures to the Vietnamese being trained at the Kuomintang's Whampoa Military Academy....

Ho was a fucking communist, any interaction with the United States during WW2 was as a means to an end to fuck the Japs and eventually fuck over the cousin Oliver of the Anglo-Franco Military Alliance post ww2.

The dirty little secret is the Kuomintang itself was largely a communist movement or at a minimum some proto "3d way" Kleptocrat/Socialist hybrid.

Saying Ho would have been a nice guy if we weren't so mean or had not aided Fwance and that Ho was able to be bought after 2 and half decades of communist agitation is magic thinking and wishing.

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 Post subject: Re: How I began to teach about the Vietnam War
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:42 pm 
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For the Vietnamese people, it wasn't about ho ... it was about independence from furriners ... do they have a holiday for ho ? no. Do they have an independence day ? yes.

For the Vietnamese people, ho was a means to an end ... they still have a long ways to go ... but independence was a big step.

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 Post subject: Re: How I began to teach about the Vietnam War
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:59 pm 
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The reason the US should've backed ho is because the US should've backed the Vietnamese people - not the frogs going back in ... that seems clear, simple and logical to me ... and "communism" has nothing to do with it ... one way or the other ...

The current Vietnamese "leaders" don't behave like communists anyway, they behave like kangz ... and the Vietnamese people don't think much of them ... but at least they are Vietnamese kangz and not frog ones or US ones or worst of all Chinese ones ...

And the Vietnamese people really do not like the Chinks ... and I respect them for it ... what do they have? But they would fight the chinks to the death ... they have some guts ... they really do not like the chinks ... so +1 to the Vietnamese people !!!

:)

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 Post subject: Re: How I began to teach about the Vietnam War
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:14 am 
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Operation Passage to Freedom was a term used by the United States Navy to describe its assistance in transporting in 1954–55 310,000 Vietnamese civilians, soldiers and non-Vietnamese members of the French Army from communist North Vietnam (the Democratic Republic of Vietnam) to South Vietnam (the State of Vietnam, later to become the Republic of Vietnam). The French and other countries may have transported a further 500,000.[1][2][3] In the wake of the French defeat at the Battle of Dien Bien Phu, the Geneva Accords of 1954 decided the fate of French Indochina after eight years of war between French Union forces and the Viet Minh, which sought Vietnamese independence. The accords resulted in the partition of Vietnam at the 17th parallel north, with Ho Chi Minh's communist Viet Minh in control of the north and the French-backed State of Vietnam in the south. The agreements allowed a 300-day period of grace, ending on May 18, 1955, in which people could move freely between the two Vietnams before the border was sealed. The partition was intended to be temporary, pending elections in 1956 to reunify the country under a national government. Between 600,000 and one million northerners moved south, including more than 200,000 French citizens and soldiers in the French army [4] while between 14,000 - 45,000 civilians and approximately 100,000 Viet Minh fighters moved in the opposite direction.[1][5][6]

The mass emigration of northerners was facilitated primarily by the French Air Force and Navy. American naval vessels supplemented the French in evacuating northerners to Saigon, the southern capital. The operation was accompanied by a large humanitarian relief effort, bankrolled in the main by the United States government in an attempt to absorb a large tent city of refugees that had sprung up outside Saigon. For the US, the migration was a public relations coup, generating wide coverage of the flight of Vietnamese from the perceived oppression of communism to the "free world" in the southern dictatorship under American auspices. The period was marked by a Central Intelligence Agency-backed propaganda campaign on behalf of South Vietnam's Roman Catholic Prime Minister Ngo Dinh Diem. The campaign exhorted Catholics to flee impending religious persecution under communism, and around 60% of the north's 1 million Catholics obliged.[6][7]
(Continued)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation ... to_Freedom

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 Post subject: Re: How I began to teach about the Vietnam War
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:46 am 
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Vietnamese boat people refers to refugees who fled Vietnam by boat and ship after the Vietnam War, especially during 1978 and 1979, but continuing until the early 1990s. The term is also often used generically to refer to all the Vietnamese (about 2 million) who left their country by any means between 1975 and 1995 (see Indochina refugee crisis). This article uses "boat people" to apply only to those who fled Vietnam by boat.

The number of boat people leaving Vietnam and arriving safely in another country totalled almost 800,000 between 1975 and 1995. Many of the refugees failed to survive the passage, facing danger and hardship from pirates, over-crowded boats, and storms. The boat people's first destinations were the Southeast Asian countries of British Hong Kong, Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines, Singapore and Thailand. An estimated 14% of the refugees were Chinese or Sino-Vietnamese people.[1]

The combination of economic sanctions, the legacy of destruction left by the Vietnam War, Vietnamese government policies, and further conflicts with neighboring countries caused an international humanitarian crisis, with the Southeast Asian countries increasingly unwilling to accept more boat people on their shores. After negotiations and an international conference in 1979, Vietnam agreed to limit the flow of people leaving the country. The Southeast Asian countries agreed to admit the boat people temporarily, and the rest of the world, especially the developed countries, agreed to assume most of the costs of caring for the boat people and to resettle them in their countries.

From refugee camps in Southeast Asia, the great majority of boat people were resettled in developed countries, some in the United States and most of the remainder in Australia, Canada, France, Germany, and the United Kingdom. Several tens of thousands were repatriated to Vietnam, either voluntarily or involuntarily. Programs and facilities to carry out resettlement included the Orderly Departure Program, the Philippine Refugee Processing Center, and the Comprehensive Plan of Action.

(Continued)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_boat_people

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 Post subject: Re: How I began to teach about the Vietnam War
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:00 am 
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The Communist Party of Vietnam (CPV) in 2016 maintained its control over all public affairs and punished those who challenged its monopoly on power. Authorities restricted basic rights, including freedom of speech, opinion, association, and assembly. All religious groups had to register with the government and operate under surveillance. Bloggers and activists faced daily police harassment and intimidation, and were subject to arbitrary house arrest, restricted movement, and physical assaults. Many were detained for long periods without access to legal counsel or family visits. The number of bloggers and activists known to be convicted and sentenced to prison almost tripled from the previous year, from 7 to at least 19.

In January, the CPV held its 12th congress, during which it selected the country’s new politburo. Of the 19 members, four, including Vietnam’s new president Tran Dai Quang, were from the Ministry of Public Security. In May, Vietnam held a tightly controlled and scripted national election in which all candidates had to be approved by the CPV. Several dozen independent candidates were intimidated and disqualified.
Freedom of Speech and Opinion

The Vietnamese government frequently uses vaguely worded penal code provisions to crackdown on dissent, including “undermining national unity,” “conducting propaganda against the state,” and “abusing the rights to democracy and freedom to infringe upon the interests of the state.”

During the first nine months of 2016, at least 19 bloggers and activists were put on trial and convicted. Others continue to be held without trial, including rights campaigners Nguyen Van Dai, Tran Anh Kim, Le Thanh Tung, and Nguyen Ngoc Nhu Quynh.

In March, the People’s Court of Hanoi sentenced prominent blogger Nguyen Huu Vinh (also known as Ba Sam) and his colleague Nguyen Thi Minh Thuy to five and three years respectively under article 258 for running a politically independent website.

Also in March, the People’s Court of Ho Chi Minh City sentenced prominent blogger Nguyen Dinh Ngoc (also known as Nguyen Ngoc Gia) to four years in prison for publishing articles on the internet. The same court convicted land rights activists Ngo Thi Minh Uoc to four years, and Nguyen Thi Be Hai and Nguyen Thi Tri, to three years each for staging a peaceful protest outside the United States Consulate in Ho Chi Minh City. In October, Nguyen Dinh Ngoc’s sentence was reduced to three years on appeal.

In August, the People’s Court of Khanh Hoa sentenced cousins Nguyen Huu Quoc Duy and Nguyen Huu Thien An to three and two years respectively for “conducting propaganda against the Socialist Republic of Vietnam” in accordance with article 88 of the penal code. According to state media, Nguyen Huu Thien An painted reactionary slogans on the outside wall of a police station, while Nguyen Huu Quoc Duy called for the VCP leadership to be removed. The two were also accused of accessing “reactionary” websites.

In September, the People’s Court of Dong Da district in Hanoi sentenced land rights activist Can Thi Theu to 20 months in prison for participating in a public protest and boycotting the national election.
State Violence against Activists, Dissidents, and Criminal Suspects

There were frequent physical assaults against human rights bloggers and campaigners at the hands of anonymous men who appear to be acting with state sanction and impunity. During the first seven months of 2016, at least 34 people—including children—reported that unknown assailants beat them.

In February, men threw rocks at the house of former political prisoner, Tran Minh Nhat, and broke his skull. In April, former political prisoner Nguyen Dinh Cuong was taken to a police station in Nghe An province where men in civilian clothes beat ad punched him. In May, police briefly detained 17-year-old rights activist Huynh Thanh Phat for allegedly participating in pro-environment protests. Two men wearing surgical masks and civilian clothes attacked him on the way home from the police station. In June, an unidentified man punched rights activist Nguyen Van Thanh in a café in Da Nang and bruised his face. In July, men in civilian clothes attacked rights activist La Viet Dung with a brick in Hanoi and broke his skull. No one was charged in any of the cases.

Police brutality continued, and detainees were apparently injured and even killed as a result. For example, in March 2016, Y Sik Nie died from alleged torture in Dak Lak province after being arrested for theft. In July, Bui Minh Trang, Bui Minh Truong, and Tran Van Cuong reported that they were detained for five days without a warrant and then beaten in custody by police in Quang Tri province for involvement in a dispute. The three men claimed they were forced to write statements saying they volunteered to spend five days at the police station.
Freedoms of Assembly, Association, and Movement

Vietnam bans all independent political parties, labor unions, and human rights organizations. Authorities require official approval for public gatherings and refuse to grant permission for meetings, marches, or protests they deem politically or otherwise unacceptable.

In May, police used excessive force to disperse pro-environment marches in Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh City. Many protesters reported that they were beaten and detained for hours. Several protesters, including Vo Chi Dai Duong, Dang Ngoc Thuy, Cao Tran Quan, Xuan Dieu, and Nguyen Tan, were taken to administrative detention centers where they were kept for several days without access to legal counsel or due process.

Restrictions on freedom of movement are used to prevent bloggers and activists from attending public events, such as protests, human rights discussions, or trials of fellow activists. In May, police detained prominent rights campaigner Nguyen Quang A and influential blogger Pham Doan Trang to prevent them from attending a private meeting with United States President Barack Obama during his visit to Vietnam. Nguyen Quang A reported that between late March and early August 2016 police detained him six times to prevent him from meeting with foreign diplomats and delegations including Germany, the United States, the European Union, and Australia.
Freedom of Religion

The government monitors, harasses, and sometimes violently cracks down on religious groups that operate outside official, government-registered, and government-controlled religious institutions. Authorities subject to intrusive surveillance unrecognized branches of the Cao Dai church, the Hoa Hao Buddhist church, independent Protestant and Catholic house churches in the central highlands and elsewhere, Khmer Krom Buddhist temples, and the Unified Buddhist Church of Vietnam.

During the first eight months of 2016, the People’s Court of Gia Lai province convicted at least nine Montagnards, including Gyun, Thin, Dinh Ku, A Tik, A Jen, Siu Doang, Ksor Pup, Siu Dik, and Ksor Phit, for participating in independent religious groups not approved by the government. They were charged for “undermining national unity” under article 87 and sentenced to between five and eleven years in prison.

Another common form of harassment that authorities continue to use against independent religious groups is forced denunciation of their faith. In April, state media reported that more than 500 followers of the outlawed Dega Protestants “voluntarily renounced” their faith in Chu Puh district, Gia Lai province. This constitutes a violation of freedom of belief, which is not subject to limitation under international human rights law.
Criminal Justice System

Vietnamese courts remained firmly under the political control of the government and the VCP. Trials of rights bloggers and activists consistently failed in 2016 to meet international fair standards. Police regularly intimidated and in some cases detained family members and friends who tried to attend trials.

In March, Hanoi police detained a number of activists, including Nguyen Dinh Ha and Nguyen Quang A, for trying to attend the trial of blogger Nguyen Huu Vinh. In August, police in Khanh Hoa province reportedly dragged Nguyen Thi Nay by the hair and detained her for several hours for trying to approach the court during the trial of her son, Nguyen Huu Quoc Duy.
Drug Detention Centers

Thousands of people who use drugs, including children, continue to be held without due process in government detention centers, where they are forced to work in the name of “labor therapy,” a practice that violates prohibitions of forced labor under Vietnamese and international law. According to state media, during the first three months of 2016 alone more than 1,000 people were sent to mandatory centers in and around Ho Chi Minh City. Violations of center rules and failure to meet work quotas are punished by beatings and confinement to disciplinary rooms where detainees are deprived of food and water.
Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity


(continued)
https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2017/c ... rs/vietnam

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